V12 Licence

[Nick_M]

I have a site running a 16SC V12 installation bought on a perpetual licence. No current 3CX maintenance, but we still maintain it. It serves a 32 apartment residential sheltered housing complex. The SSD in the unit is now failing and we need to swap out the drive. We have temporarily set up a NUC on a VPN running V12 in demo 2SC mode so that they can continue to receive calls from the door entry systems etc. I restored our backup from the main server and all the config is there but the licence is not. If i enter the licence details in the 3CX it is unable to validate with the 3CX server (presumably as they have now been retired?) and I cannot get the system out of 2SC mode which is not really viable for them!

I have ordered a new drive for their main machine but am now concerned that even if I re-install V12 on the new drive and apply the backup then we are not going to be able to reapply the licence?

We did take an Acronis image of the drive after it had been initially configured for just this scenario, but it was back in 2015 and we are struggling to find where it was filed now!

To be clear these users (generally in the 70+ year old range) do not want or need ANY additional tech services other than to be able to make and receive a phone call (in fact all of the apartment extensions are analogue as they wouldn't be able to understand an IP phone with all its features!).

Is there a way to revalidate the licence on a new build of their V12 machine?

 

[AWS2P]

Is there a way to revalidate the licence on a new build of their V12 machine?

In short , i'm pretty sure it will be : Nope

 

[VoIPTools]

It is time to upgrade.

 

[Nick_M]

In short , i'm pretty sure it will be : Nope

I'm pretty sure the definition of "perpetual" means "the state or quality of lasting forever" not "until we decide we want some more money from you..."

 

[Nick_M]

It is time to upgrade.

Why should they upgrade? because someone determines they want to sell you something new? The existing V12 serves them perfectly well...what does V18 offer them that they would actually want, need, or use?

 

[VoIPTools]

That's a little like expecting to run OS/2 forever. Technologies change and the world moves on. You cannot expect 3CX to support the same activation process forever, especially as security challenges evolve.

Continuing to run V12 unchanged is, in my opinion, is a poor decision given the relative cost of subjecting yourself to evolving security threats and setting aside the benefits of improving technologies. You could probably still run OS/2 on an ancient old server, and some might argue if it is not broken, don't fix it... but let's see how easy it is to find someone who still can support OS/2. Good luck with that.

I don't know your business, but for most organizations the cost of 3CX is such a tiny part of the cost of operations that the benefits of being on a supported platform far outweigh the modest investment needed to remain on a supported platform. The fact that you are here burning through labor hours trying to figure out how to save a few dollars on 3CX license fees demonstrates a lack of consideration for what the REAL costs are to your organization if your 3CX server goes down and you have to scramble to get funding to purchase a new license, migrate your users to a new platform, and retrain.

It's just my opinion, but you need to consider that the worst possible option would be to let a hardware failure dictate when you upgrade your phone system. Orderly, planned, thoughtful migrations are far better for your organization than discovering your system is down during production hours and now you are impacting operations and your customers at the worst possible time.

I run a software company myself. Supporting old versions of our software comes at a real, and significant cost. Just in test servers alone we probably have 30 servers. 3CX is now on version 18 SP7. I cannot even calculate how many servers we would need to support and test software going back 5 versions and nearly countless service packs. The only alternative would be to significantly increase the purchase price of 3CX and quadruple the number of staff. Nick's view seems to be keep the company lean and the prices low and we have all benefited from his approach.

 

[Nick_M]

Paragraph by paragraph response:

P1: If someone advertises they have sold you a "perpetual" licence then that should be able to be used in perpetuity....and yes I would expect to still be able to install and use the software I had bought, assuming that I was running it on a compatible hardware/software platform.

P2: Its a poor decision for you perhaps, but to my client it is the decision they would like to pursue, as far as they have concerned, they paid a one off investment for a product so that they didn't have to pay ongoing subscriptions, or be forced into updates that in their opinion are not needed. From a security standpoint this is a closed system. Connections to the apartments are analogue, and connection to the telco are ISDN30. It sits on a stand-alone LAN. The clients do not need new technology, they only use 10% of the V12 systems capability and actively resist any attempt I make to avail them of additional features. They pay the bills so that is their decision to make, and frankly since V12 meets their requirements with room to spare I don't feel I have a case to champion

P3: My business is installation and support. The V12 system is not my system, but one of my clients. How I wish to run my business is immaterial to my client. They know how they want to run their finances and spend their money. My role in this is to offer (chargeable) support. As for burning through labour hours, I spent 5 minutes posting on a forum whilst waiting for a train, not exactly taxing on MY business hours....The REAL cost to my client, who are residential, is inconvenience, coupled with whatever charges we bill for the repairs. I have now spent 15 minutes on the forum as its taken me an additional 10 minutes to reply to your post that has offered no tangible assistance!

P4: Again, you are confusing this with a business environment. In the corporate world I would agree, in this particular instance I would not. Taking your argument to a logical extension within a residential setting, you are suggesting that the client replaces every piece of technology in their home when a new unit comes out just in case their existing unit fails. Obviously this would be ludicrous!

P5. That's all wonderful, however I again assert: If you've purchased a perpetual licence then it should be able to be used in perpetuity. If they don't want to run the servers to do that any more as its too onerous on their business for the few clients that may remain on an older version, then there ought to be a way of manually enabling the licence that has been purchased to work. It has been obvious over the last few years that 3CX have actively sought to move clients to a subscription based model. I understand why (we've been selling services like this for years!), but that doesn't mean that people (i.e my client) who have invested in what they believed (and was advertised as) a one-off purchase should be unable to use it due to the supplying company making external changes.

 

[SnakeRiverWebDevelopment]

purchased a perpetual licence

Does not mean perpetual maintenance, that is the issue here. as well as outdated software, simple answer it just wont work. I think you are under the illusion it should work forever.

 

[SweetAction]

@Nick_M
While I agree that a perpetual license should be good to go forever, 3CX does not. 3CX perpetual is not the same as every other companies perpetual in that eventually the software needs a re-activation and fails, downgrading to free mode. Actually I'm kind of of surprised that you haven't been forced to re-activate before now and run into this issue - v12 servers have been offline for... at least 5 years now.

It doesn't help you, I know, but your best bet would be to buy a new v18 annual license (perpetual and annual are the same price, but annual includes maintenance) and factor in that cost every year (or pre-buy many years) OR use another product that has a license model you like.

 

[Nick_M]

Does not mean perpetual maintenance, that is the issue here. as well as outdated software, simple answer it just wont work. I think you are under the illusion it should work forever.

Maintenance is irrelevant. My client didn't purchase "perpetual maintenance" they purchased a perpetual licence. To 3CX's credit the V12 SW has worked without issue from day one and no SW maintenance has ever been required.

And, yes it should last forever, it's LITERALLY what perpetual means !!!!

For reference; Websters Dictionary:

PERPET'UAL, adjective [Latin perpetuus, from perpes, perpetis; per and pes, from a root signifying to pass.]

1. Never ceasing; continuing forever in future time; destined to be eternal; as a perpetual covenant; a perpetual statute.

[Literally true with respect to the decrees of the Supreme Being.]

2. Continuing or continued without intermission; uninterrupted; as a perpetual stream; the perpetual action of the heart and arteries.

3. Permanent; fixed; not temporary; as a perpetual law or edict; perpetual love or amity, perpetual incense. Exodus 30:8.

4. Everlasting; endless.

If my client decides to sue me, what definition of perpetual do you think their lawyer will use?

I have many forms of software for which I've purchased a licence. Only one company has sold that as perpetual. I cant think of another instance where I have not been able to reinstall software and successfully apply the licence. The only instance in recent memory where this has happened is this one that was explicitly sold as "perpetual".

From the responses here it seems people think I am somehow trying to avoid paying due charges or expecting something for free. The issue here is way more fundamental: my client has paid for a licence that is advertised as being perpetual, the definition of which (see above) is now not being met by the vending company due to them actively preventing it from being able to work. My client is only expecting what they have paid for.

I am stuck in the middle of this (as having previously been a 3CX reseller) I made the sale, and I currently maintain the hardware and software.

 

[SnakeRiverWebDevelopment]

Let me guess, you are still using Windows 98.

 

[CentrexJ]

Maintenance is irrelevant. My client didn't purchase "perpetual maintenance" they purchased a perpetual licence. To 3CX's credit the V12 SW has worked without issue from day one and no SW maintenance has ever been required.

And, yes it should last forever, it's LITERALLY what perpetual means !!!!

For reference; Websters Dictionary:

PERPET'UAL, adjective [Latin perpetuus, from perpes, perpetis; per and pes, from a root signifying to pass.]

1. Never ceasing; continuing forever in future time; destined to be eternal; as a perpetual covenant; a perpetual statute.

[Literally true with respect to the decrees of the Supreme Being.]

2. Continuing or continued without intermission; uninterrupted; as a perpetual stream; the perpetual action of the heart and arteries.

3. Permanent; fixed; not temporary; as a perpetual law or edict; perpetual love or amity, perpetual incense. Exodus 30:8.

4. Everlasting; endless.

If my client decides to sue me, what definition of perpetual do you think their lawyer will use?

I have many forms of software for which I've purchased a licence. Only one company has sold that as perpetual. I cant think of another instance where I have not been able to reinstall software and successfully apply the licence. The only instance in recent memory where this has happened is this one that was explicitly sold as "perpetual".

From the responses here it seems people think I am somehow trying to avoid paying due charges or expecting something for free. The issue here is way more fundamental: my client has paid for a licence that is advertised as being perpetual, the definition of which (see above) is now not being met by the vending company due to them actively preventing it from being able to work. My client is only expecting what they have paid for.

I am stuck in the middle of this (as having previously been a 3CX reseller) I made the sale, and I currently maintain the hardware and software.

You tell the customer that the 3CX license servers for v12 are no longer active and there is no way to re-activate the product.

3CX v12 was released in 2013.

I believe you can likely still do a trade-in of the perpetual license for a 1 year free license of the same product that they have. If not talk to your 3CX sales person and they can likely arrange this.

Its important that a 3CX system is kept up to date, which is why the perpetual licenses are no longer sold.

 

[Nick_M]

@Nick_M
While I agree that a perpetual license should be good to go forever, 3CX does not. 3CX perpetual is not the same as every other companies perpetual in that eventually the software needs a re-activation and fails, downgrading to free mode. Actually I'm kind of of surprised that you haven't been forced to re-activate before now and run into this issue - v12 servers have been offline for... at least 5 years now.

It doesn't help you, I know, but your best bet would be to buy a new v18 annual license (perpetual and annual are the same price, but annual includes maintenance) and factor in that cost every year (or pre-buy many years) OR use another product that has a license model you like.

Again I refer to the legal definition of perpetual, this time from a legal dictionary:

Let me guess, you are still using Windows 98.

Really? Don't be such a cock!

As I have said before, this is not my system, it is my clients. It perfectly suits their needs and they are not a cash rich corporation with an annual IT budget...

Don't confuse the hardware / software footprint of my company with one of my clients. You have no idea of the portfolio of our work, nor the programming expertise we possess over many different platforms.

You might be "advance certified" in 3CX, but clearly not qualified in inter-person communications...

...oh, and by the way, if I did want to run Windows 98 on a compatible machine, I could install it, enter the licence code, and it would work.

 

[Nick_M]

You tell the customer that the 3CX license servers for v12 are no longer active and there is no way to re-activate the product.

3CX v12 was released in 2013.

I believe you can likely still do a trade-in of the perpetual license for a 1 year free license of the same product that they have. If not talk to your 3CX sales person and they can likely arrange this.

Its important that a 3CX system is kept up to date, which is why the perpetual licenses are no longer sold.

I have already had that conversation, and they replied "yes, but we purchased a perpetual licence".

I fully understand the necessity for keeping systems of any sort that are exposed to the Internet and open for abuse up to date. This particular system however does not work in that way. It has happily run on a windows 7 pro installation on a rack mount industrial PC on a closed LAN since installation. The client has minimal needs for the system and has kept to ISDN specifically to negate the security aspects of exposing the system to the cloud. Bizarrely this clients security exposure during 3CX's recent episode were nil. Transpires that newest is not always best. Depends on the scenario.

If 3CX ( I will contact them tomorrow) can't or won't assist with the V12 instance then I will obviously need to investigate an alternative. From a legal perspective I may end up having to do this at our cost. However I doubt the client will sanction going with a 3CX upgrade on a subscription basis, having (in their perception) been let down by that supplier. It is more likely that it will result in a different hardware based IPPBX device being installed as a one off purchase.

 

[Evolute IT]

Sounds like 3CX is no longer the platform for your customer.

You should sue Microsoft for not supporting my perpetual license of Windows XP and Office 2003...

Seriously, use FreePBX or understand how software works.

 

[SweetAction]

Again I refer to the legal definition of perpetual, this time from a legal dictionary:

You're preaching to the choir here - I know what perpetual means. I've been exactly where you are today over 5 years ago (I started selling 3CX in the v9 days and using it even earlier). Very uncomfortable situations with clients when I had to explain that 3CX and they disagreed on what that word meant. Even worse when the newer version is missing a feature (music on hold line in for example) and they have no choice but to upgrade because of activation woes.

You have a decision to make. My post was solely to lay out the options the way I see it. Unless I'm seriously wrong, 3CX isn't going to spin back up the v12 activation servers. So you can buy a new version or you can use another product. I've sometimes seen 3CX willing to refund the original purchase and stop doing business with people going forward, but can't promise that will happen here (it probably won't, they will likely claim 10 years is a lot of use time) - but I'm not 3CX, just someone trying to help you.

Honestly for your use case (everything is analog phones) I have no idea why you don't just use asterisk. What feature of 3CX are you needing?

Best of luck to you.

EDIT: Formatting

 

[Nick_M]

Sounds like 3CX is no longer the platform for your customer.

You should sue Microsoft for not supporting my perpetual license of Windows XP and Office 2003...

Seriously, use FreePBX or understand how software works.

Well, again, you are confusing "License to use" with "support"

Windows XP may be out of support, but the licence key still works....

BTW I've been dealing with software since the days of UNIX, DOS, Windows 1, and Novell Networking, so I have a fair understanding of how licensing has worked over the years....but thanks for the education.

 

[Nick_M]

You're preaching to the choir here - I know what perpetual means. I've been exactly where you are today over 5 years ago (I started selling 3CX in the v9 days and using it even earlier). Very uncomfortable situations with clients when I had to explain that 3CX and they disagreed on what that word meant. Even worse when the newer version is missing a feature (music on hold line in) and they have no choice but to upgrade.

You have a decision to make. My post was solely to lay out the options the way I see it. Unless I'm seriously wrong, 3CX isn't going to spin back up the v12 activation servers. So you can buy a new version or you can use another product. I've sometimes seen 3CX willing to refund the original purchase and stop doing business with people going forward, but can't promise that will happen here (it probably won't, they will likely claim 10 years is a lot of use time) - but I'm not 3CX, just someone trying to help you.

Honestly for your use case (everything is analog phones) I have no idea why you don't just use asterisk. What feature of 3CX are you needing?

Best of luck to you.

EDIT: Formatting

Thanks, its just a truly uncomfortable position to be in with a client we have dealt with for 23 years.

TBH our marketplace for telephony services is mainly high end (i.e multi-million pound) residential, where SIP services fit in with intercoms, touch panels, access control readers, and whole house automation. We realised some years back that 3CX were fully focused on commercial large user systems where corporations had annual IT budgets to spend. Whilst we happily do Corporate AV and security systems, telephony is not an area we wish to address in that space.

For some time now we have been installing Grandstream UCM systems in the residential space, and these systems generally feature at least 50SC even on the cheapest hardware platform they come installed on. In this market place they make more sense for us. This is where we will probably end up as a solution.

I came here asking a simple question as I thought it would be a useful resource. I thought I laid out the reasoning behind staying with V12 pretty clearly, but alas most people would rather infer I was doing the job wrong or on the cheap.

Thank you for your input, one of the few that understood where I was coming from.

 

[Evolute IT]

Well, again, you are confusing @License to use" with "support"

Windows XP may be out of support, but the licence key still works....

BTW I've been dealing with software since the days of UNIX, DOS, Windows 1, and Novell Networking, so I have a fair understanding of how licensing has worked over the years....but thanks for the education.

You can't activate Windows XP anymore. The servers are down. The key will let you install, but it will stop working after 30 days.

(To be fair, XP does still work via phone activation apparently.)

 

[Evolute IT]

I think the UCM is a great alternative to 3CX for your use-cases. I understand that residential isn't the same as big commercial entities.

Also, since you have a lot of devices in these buildings, I would definitely go for FreePBX or UCM or something Asterisk based. This way, older devices are easier to work with.